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  1. #926
    Vale Nollsy Embers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunga View Post
    Melbourne Football Club responds after copping it over ‘disgusting’ advert

    The Melbourne Football Club is in damage control after being accused of a “mind-blowing” attempt to source free labour.

    Melbourne has admitted a job advertisement seeking three or four people for an 11-month unpaid role in its football department was “poorly-worded”.

    The Demons sparked an uproar with their attempt to find volunteers to work in their Football Technology Pathway Progam from December 2020 to October 2021 with contact hours varying from 10-25 hours per week.

    “An exciting opportunity has become available for 3-4 individuals to volunteer within the club’s football department for the 2021 season,” the advertisement read.

    “Reporting to the football analysis team, the successful individuals will contribute to a broad range of areas within all four of our teams in the AFL, VFL, AFLW and VFLW.

    “This program would best suit students or graduates from either an exercise and sports science, information technology, statistical and multimedia background, who have a strong interest and understanding of AFL football.”

    LOL, how poverty can you get - wanting people to work fo 10-25 hours a week for free at an AFL club ....
    Thats fairly normal and isnt anything new. Its a joke people are making a deal out of it I think

  2. #927
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    Yeah happens in a lot of industries, it's not the standard in Australia like it is in a lot of other countries but pretty normal still.

    The people complaining about it are the same kind who then complain when a job wants them to have practical experience...

  3. #928
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    I'm glad that stuff isn't the standard here, think it's shit when places expect people to work for free for the 'experience'.

  4. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by dylan123 View Post
    I'm glad that stuff isn't the standard here, think it's shit when places expect people to work for free for the 'experience'.
    It's certainly beneficial for the person being employed and it will still be a genuine cost to the employer in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

    That's the point of it really, in most of the industries where it is used they are losing money on those people for a solid 3 months on the exceptional talents and more like 6 months on an above average recruit that's actually worth keeping.

    We don't even consider hiring graduates without experience anymore and I don't know of many firms that do and that is the primary reason, the attitude of people at university these days, work habits and lack of loyalty are also contributing factors but the primary reason is you generally need them to stay for at least 2 years before you'll get any return on investment from them.

    From what I know it's even worse in law and engineering fields where their initial costs are even higher and the returns even lower.

    The perception that people are working for free is an incredibly short sighted and selfish view point that ignores all the costs that go into training someone who has essentially no skills. The business is genuinely doing them a favour in all but the rarest of circumstances and is the one losing money to do it.

  5. #930
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
    It's certainly beneficial for the person being employed and it will still be a genuine cost to the employer in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

    That's the point of it really, in most of the industries where it is used they are losing money on those people for a solid 3 months on the exceptional talents and more like 6 months on an above average recruit that's actually worth keeping.

    We don't even consider hiring graduates without experience anymore and I don't know of many firms that do and that is the primary reason, the attitude of people at university these days, work habits and lack of loyalty are also contributing factors but the primary reason is you generally need them to stay for at least 2 years before you'll get any return on investment from them.

    From what I know it's even worse in law and engineering fields where their initial costs are even higher and the returns even lower.

    The perception that people are working for free is an incredibly short sighted and selfish view point that ignores all the costs that go into training someone who has essentially no skills. The business is genuinely doing them a favour in all but the rarest of circumstances and is the one losing money to do it.
    Leads you to the point of what good is going to university for 3-4 years if you come out and are treated as someone that doesn't know anything and then expected to work for free for a year to learn anything beneficial to the job?

    I think the biggest issue I have for this AFL one is there aren't a heap of jobs to walk into compared to the finance/law/medical world. Basically you'll learn sportscode to cut/compile footage which is only useful if you manage to land a job in the football world. You might do some analytic stuff but you sure as hell won't be getting any hand holding/serious training from what I've seen. So you work for free and at the end of it, join the long list of people competing for very few spots under a salary cap which given you're not a coach means you're underpaid too - it's a shit deal.

  6. #931
    #408 Rumblah's Avatar
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    Melbourne aren't alone here but denying how outright shitty it is, is fucking bizarre. Clubs are trading on fandom
    Quote Originally Posted by Embers View Post
    I just smash the keyboard and hope.

  7. #932
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblah View Post
    Melbourne aren't alone here but denying how outright shitty it is, is fucking bizarre. Clubs are trading on fandom
    Yep I would imagine they all do it although 3-4 positions seems like quite a lot.

    Number of volunteer roles at a footy club but I feel something like this is just lame way of avoiding paying the other ones that do that job what they're worth.

  8. #933
    Veteran yeah_nah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblah View Post
    Clubs are trading on fandom
    Yeah this is what I find particularly disturbing. It's abusive as fuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle E View Post
    I then started saving extra money as a result of eating dumpster food.

    I knew when to hit the dumpster for optimum catch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle E View Post
    accualy scared of getting knocked out by yenny
    #broughtback

  9. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by dylan123 View Post
    Leads you to the point of what good is going to university for 3-4 years if you come out and are treated as someone that doesn't know anything and then expected to work for free for a year to learn anything beneficial to the job?

    I think the biggest issue I have for this AFL one is there aren't a heap of jobs to walk into compared to the finance/law/medical world. Basically you'll learn sportscode to cut/compile footage which is only useful if you manage to land a job in the football world. You might do some analytic stuff but you sure as hell won't be getting any hand holding/serious training from what I've seen. So you work for free and at the end of it, join the long list of people competing for very few spots under a salary cap which given you're not a coach means you're underpaid too - it's a shit deal.
    The university thing is a valid comment. It's why the government is trying to encourage people to study worthwhile courses where that doesn't apply nearly as much. The harsh reality is that in most fields what you've said is entirely accurate, most of the graduates come out knowing practically nothing or in many cases having to be untaught what they've already learned.

    The problem is that university degrees are extremely vague in their content and that's going on the "useful" degrees, not even counting the toilet paper degrees like 95% of the arts degrees. Meanwhile jobs are more and more specialised, accounting is one of the slowest moving industries as far as embracing change and technology and even there the AI can already do in 30 seconds most of what a grad used to do in a whole day.

    You're again calling it working for free though which is just utterly wrong. If we take on a grad tomorrow it's going to cost us ~$5k in equipment/licensing/setup (to be fair, this cost is any employee), it's going to burn say 25 hours of my time over the next 6 weeks in training (and that would be an exceptional result), that's another ~$8k, throw in the extra review requirements and inevitable write-offs and it's going to cost the firm in the 20k+ range for those 6 weeks most likely. Longer term the training time, review time and write-offs will scale down (or the employee will be gone) but the reality is that they're unlikely to be in the black for a long time.

    Law got to the point where there were firms charging graduates for jobs and there were a ton of students happy to pay it. This, sadly, is the truest reflection of what hiring a grad actually represents. It's a massive up-front cost that you hope to recoup over several years but most grads these days don't have that kind of loyalty which is why no one wants to hire them.

  10. #935
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    Can't say I have an issue with the AFL one, board members generally serve the clubs for free in volunteer positions so why shouldn't clubs be allowed to get volunteers in other positions if they want and people are willing to. No one is forcing anyone to take these jobs in any way, shape or form and if there wasn't people to fill them they wouldn't bother looking for them.

    I don't know, I just don't get it I guess, I could understand if people were being forced to do these roles or something without choice but I know if an AFL team offered me the chance to be a coach or a GM or several other roles I'd be very happy to take the job for free because of the opportunity it would present.

  11. #936
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
    The university thing is a valid comment. It's why the government is trying to encourage people to study worthwhile courses where that doesn't apply nearly as much. The harsh reality is that in most fields what you've said is entirely accurate, most of the graduates come out knowing practically nothing or in many cases having to be untaught what they've already learned.

    The problem is that university degrees are extremely vague in their content and that's going on the "useful" degrees, not even counting the toilet paper degrees like 95% of the arts degrees. Meanwhile jobs are more and more specialised, accounting is one of the slowest moving industries as far as embracing change and technology and even there the AI can already do in 30 seconds most of what a grad used to do in a whole day.

    You're again calling it working for free though which is just utterly wrong. If we take on a grad tomorrow it's going to cost us ~$5k in equipment/licensing/setup (to be fair, this cost is any employee), it's going to burn say 25 hours of my time over the next 6 weeks in training (and that would be an exceptional result), that's another ~$8k, throw in the extra review requirements and inevitable write-offs and it's going to cost the firm in the 20k+ range for those 6 weeks most likely. Longer term the training time, review time and write-offs will scale down (or the employee will be gone) but the reality is that they're unlikely to be in the black for a long time.

    Law got to the point where there were firms charging graduates for jobs and there were a ton of students happy to pay it. This, sadly, is the truest reflection of what hiring a grad actually represents. It's a massive up-front cost that you hope to recoup over several years but most grads these days don't have that kind of loyalty which is why no one wants to hire them.
    Random ass degrees or super general ones are one thing but you're also mentioning Finance grad positions being unpaid, surely these courses should be more directed or universities are failing all parties.

    It is working for free. The individual rocks up for x amount of hours and doesn't get paid for any of it, that's working for free from their pov, regardless of how the company chooses to view it. Also find it interesting you bring up how much it costs the company, how people should be working for free to get this experience/training and then wonder why there's no loyalty at all? We're all expendable so if you're not going to be compensated with what you view to be a decent salary, why should someone remain loyal when someone across the road is going to give you a better salary package or opportunity? Always find it interesting how hard it is for people to get a pay rise yet whoever comes in has to be trained which is money and resources - again, no loyalty coming the other way I'd have thought.

  12. #937
    Veteran Triptanes's Avatar
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    Surely thats when you know you've hit rock bottom - gagging to work for the Dees for free. Although when you think about it - kind of makes sense they'd be looking at the work experience kid for good ideas and innovation

    Perhaps their players, coaches and administrators for the last few decades could return some of their fraudulently obtained salaries (i.e. masquerading as professionals) to fund this. Lyon should be able to cover several positions alone

  13. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by dylan123 View Post
    Random ass degrees or super general ones are one thing but you're also mentioning Finance grad positions being unpaid, surely these courses should be more directed or universities are failing all parties.
    Commerce/Finance is an exceptionally broad field. Even within the finance or accounting majors they're completely different.

    Heck, we've got half a dozen accountants on this forum and most of us would fail miserably at doing each other's job for the first few months at least despite being pretty equally experienced. It's a highly specialised occupation.

    But yes, university quality has fallen substantially as well. They let everyone in and aren't allowed to really challenge them in any meaningful way anymore.

    It is working for free. The individual rocks up for x amount of hours and doesn't get paid for any of it, that's working for free from their pov, regardless of how the company chooses to view it. Also find it interesting you bring up how much it costs the company, how people should be working for free to get this experience/training and then wonder why there's no loyalty at all? We're all expendable so if you're not going to be compensated with what you view to be a decent salary, why should someone remain loyal when someone across the road is going to give you a better salary package or opportunity? Always find it interesting how hard it is for people to get a pay rise yet whoever comes in has to be trained which is money and resources - again, no loyalty coming the other way I'd have thought.
    It may be working for no salary but it's just not working for free. When someone is willing to give you 20k in training that's a pretty damn good offer, especially given the experience of knowing how to do the job is by far the best currency you can have when trying to get a job. My experience is far more valuable than my degree and people pay 20k+ for that degree.

    Not saying I expect people to work for "free" but the people who complain about these types of opportunities clearly don't understand the cost involved in actually offering them or the reward in completing them. In a perfect world people would want to hire graduates and graduates would want to stay long term to actually provide something to the firm but because the latter rarely happens now the first part also doesn't happen.

    It's anecdotal but I don't know of any mid-tier firms that want to hire graduates right now, I don't even know any that want to do work experience placements because they cost too much money to the firm and offer no reward. Pretty much everyone I know that gets those positions has a parent who is either an important client or a close friend of a partner because you lose money on them. That across the road factor just doesn't exist for graduate positions, it's absolutely everywhere for intermediate and senior though, which is part of the problem.

    The loyalty is actually very much there, it's very painful to lose a good employee. The payrises not so much but that's every industry at every level pretty much and a bigger fundamental problem but the firms are actually very loyal. The problem is the payoff is a long term commitment that people aren't willing to make these days and so people end up jumping around. I don't even consider myself loyal but every recruiter trying to poach me on LinkedIn (and god there are a lot) mentions how my loyalty really stands out because I've only worked at 3 firms...

    From my understanding the legal industry is even worse for all of this. Realistically I think the days of university are probably pretty limited given how little value it provides in most fields, it's become something that everyone can do and does instead of a genuine place of higher education for superior students to further their studies, it's become so diluted as to lose its actual original purpose.

  14. #939
    #408 Rumblah's Avatar
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    Remind me again what the relevance of wogis work is to the Melbourne football club advertising for 100 hours a week of free labour? If the implication is that Melbourne will be funding 20k x4 to train these volunteers, then you need to stop smoking meth with ee my dude.

    In no way is your situation comparable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Embers View Post
    I just smash the keyboard and hope.

  15. #940
    Veteran Dogbloke V3's Avatar
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    Surely the role would be classed as a "top tier" in wogis argument because what higher places can you go above an AFL team for this role? Which means you should certainly get paid.

    However it should really fall back on the AFL for creating a cap in the off field system

  16. #941
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    The cap would suck, more of a squeeze where a huge chunk goes to coaches, it wouldn't leave much left to get paid well or ever move up the pay scale as that would always go towards keeping or attracting coaches.

    Not sure you'd have much more luck in other codes in Australia either, maybe cricket?

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  17. #942
    Vale Nollsy Embers's Avatar
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    To be fair to Melbourne, Geelong have similar ads up for AFL listed players. I believe thats how they signed Zac Tuohy

  18. #943
    disco Ball So Hard's Avatar
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    The Dees are just leveraging their position to get cheap (or unpaid) labour, if R & Z Tax Accountants offered a similar role there would be zero up take. It's nothing new in higher profile industries but that still doesn't mean it isn't wrong. I don't buy into the cost of training someone up argument, maybe if it was for a one month role, but it's basically a full year. The intern should be relatively autonomous within a month or two.
    #NBCSiberia

  19. #944
    Vale Nollsy Embers's Avatar
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    Its well known also that AFL clubs pay 30% below market rates for alot of jobs because of the clout having you on your resume gives people. Surprised the SJW arnt more up in arms about that

  20. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Embers View Post
    Its well known also that AFL clubs pay 30% below market rates for alot of jobs because of the clout having you on your resume gives people. Surprised the SJW arnt more up in arms about that
    Yeah this is 100% the case too.

    Thing is though if I saw an AFL club on a CV it honestly wouldn't stand out to me at all.
    #NBCSiberia

  21. #946
    Vale Nollsy Embers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball So Hard View Post
    Yeah this is 100% the case too.

    Thing is though if I saw an AFL club on a CV it honestly wouldn't stand out to me at all.
    Im thinking "desperate fanboy"
    dylan123 knows what im talking about with his Wingy obsession

  22. #947
    Kawhi Leonard. dylan123's Avatar
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    Can confirm fanboy status

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  23. #948
    Vale Nollsy Embers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dylan123 View Post
    Can confirm fanboy status

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    Can see it now

    "Dylan, why do you have 3 Chad Wingard signed jumpers on your wall"
    "Well small, medium and large of course"

  24. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblah View Post
    Remind me again what the relevance of wogis work is to the Melbourne football club advertising for 100 hours a week of free labour? If the implication is that Melbourne will be funding 20k x4 to train these volunteers, then you need to stop smoking meth with ee my dude.

    In no way is your situation comparable.
    Was a general comment for why those positions exist and why people should be taking them if they're genuinely wanting to get into those fields. I already said I don't see an issue with Melbourne doing it at all. It might not be 20k for them, I don't even know what field they've advertised for, but there will be ongoing costs to the club in training them and those people will certainly benefit from that training long term.

    It's also a club, not a corporate entity, it's genuinely the standard and the norm for positions to be volunteer at clubs. It's a tiny percentage of positions at clubs that are actually paid positions across Australia.

    Just don't get the uproar. If no one wants the position and experience, no one will apply for the job. If there are people who want to get ahead by taking those positions then I have literally no issue with it. This isn't some gun to the head situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ball So Hard View Post
    The Dees are just leveraging their position to get cheap (or unpaid) labour, if R & Z Tax Accountants offered a similar role there would be zero up take. It's nothing new in higher profile industries but that still doesn't mean it isn't wrong. I don't buy into the cost of training someone up argument, maybe if it was for a one month role, but it's basically a full year. The intern should be relatively autonomous within a month or two.
    It's an incredibly part time role as well. 10 hours a week is basically a day compared to most other graduate type positions. You're also dead wrong on the accounting thing, we get a ton of inquiries from people desperate for work experience positions, the difference is I can't see any firm actually offering something like that because it costs too much and "we give work experience kids a go" has no PR value to us.

  25. #950
    Veteran yeah_nah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
    Heck, we've got half a dozen accountants on this forum and most of us would fail miserably at doing each other's job for the first few months at least despite being pretty equally experienced. It's a highly specialised occupation.
    That is true, I don't know what everyone else does exactly but damn Id have no idea in half of accounting jobs tbh.

    Im actually the opposite though. Worried I'm not specialised enough, nothing I do takes a high degree of technical knowledge at all.

    If operational managers were competent I probably wouldn't even have a job lel, fortunately that will never change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle E View Post
    I then started saving extra money as a result of eating dumpster food.

    I knew when to hit the dumpster for optimum catch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle E View Post
    accualy scared of getting knocked out by yenny
    #broughtback

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